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Check Engine Light, but no OBD II code

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H Monk	Check Engine Light, but no OBD II code	Lead	[-]
Posts: 9 (02/25/10 20:02:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None Remove this ad Purchased new, 2002 GLS 2.7 ATw/ AWD and 123,000 miles. Recently had 2nd timing belt & service at dealer before going off the extended 120,000 (HP issue extension) engine / drive train warranty. Has been running fine with 20 mpg city commute and 30 mpg highway. No problems and EZ starting & smooth running but at service, dealer suggested change out spark plugs which I declined (maybe stupidly). 3 Miles after fuel filling at cheap ARCO, car began running rough and 2 miles later, CEL light came on. OK at highway speeds but wants to stall at stop lights or low speeds. Must manually shift keeping it in lower gear to avoid stumbling. CEL is NOT flashing, just on solid but eventually goes out on it's own with no attempted fix. It does not last. Stop and start driving seems to trigger CEL light again. OBD II sensor check at local auto parts store shows NO STORED CODES. Parts guys says he cannot clear code since none is showing. I suggested possible overfull gas tank (soaked charcoal filter) or water contamination. He thinks plugs and or plug wires but without a code, it's just a guess. I disconnect battery completely (both terminals), turn on dome light and leave car for 12 hours in case there's some capacitor somewhere. Reconnect battery and POW !!! Runs smooth, idles fine and I go for test drive. Within 6 miles, begins running rough at low RPM and in another two miles....CEL light reappears. Really begins running rough especially at low revs. Stalls as I pull into driveway. Now since the OBD II sensor is not throwing a code (which I thought could not happen if the CEL light was ON), it's now a guessing game. I'd change the plugs first, but I think I'll limp to the dealer since I've read those stories of the difficulty of access. Anyone else besides me think it may be due to overfilled fuel tank? (It was attendant not me), or possibly water in the fuel? I'm open to suggestions here. (Ok, and a little criticism for putting 120,000 miles on original plugs). I promise I won't due THAT again...well, until 240,000 miles anyway. Water in fuel? Overfilled fuel causing evaporative charcoal to get soaked? (would that self heal over time?) Plugs? Blocked catalytic converter? WHY NO CODE? Any harm in trying to drive the 24 miles to the dealer, coughing and missing? Could this harm the catalytic converter to drive it while it's running so rough? Calling SBR...SBR 711. Clark Howard guy could use a little advice here. Last Edited By: H Monk 02/25/10 20:14:00. Edited 1 time.
sbr711		#1	[-]
Posts: 362 (02/26/10 15:57:01) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEEEEEEEEEEEE !! You likely need a Crank Position Sensor... the pigtal where it come off the sensor body is 3 wires inside a hard plastic flex tube... they bake and the outer tube cracks, and the insulation on the inside wires cracks/crumbles and the wires short and the engine can stall, crank it till battery dead, it not going to fire, PCM not know where crankshaft is.. Had 1 stall on me during a test drive not too long ago,, 2 left turn lanes, I was 1st car in line in the left most turn lane, rather embarrasing to say... If you is able to, I will tell you how/where to feel with finger tips to verify for yourself.. Crank sensor usually not set code till it totally fail, we usually find code after we make the repair, then it shows up. Last Edited By: sbr711 02/26/10 15:59:26. Edited 1 times.
H Monk		#2	[-]
Posts: 10 (02/26/10 19:01:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hehehe??? Funny to YOU maybe. But I was ready to try draining the gas tank...DAMN that ARCO 6 cents a gallon!! I DID get a replacement crankshaft position sensor on a TSB and that was ONLY maybe...110,000 miles ago!! Back then it was free...and the talk of this board. So what I hear you saying is there's no way to be certain that it's the crankshaft position sensor first...but it's an inexpensive (to us mere mortals) EZ fix so just do it first. Now how can I tell by touch? And where exactly is the C spot? I used to be pretty car smart but that was only on cars made before 1970. THEN I SWEAR I will get the original spark plugs replaced!! (Well unless they're working ok...then I'll continue to push my luck). What should that replacing of plugs and wires cost...ballpark? Thanks for your help.
sbr711		#3	[-]
Posts: 364 (02/27/10 08:25:35) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Remove this ad You will need to reach up behind the starter, find where the pigtail goes into sensor body.. from there use your thumb and pointing finger and roll/fell the jacket of the pigtail for cracking/chunks fall off. If chunks do fall off, you will find 3 wires inside already have deteriorated insulation and wires to be bare. DO NOT do this with key on, as I have actually popped a fuse that drives part of PCM, and after replacement, you will crank and not fire.. Note the area to be felt with fingers here for cracks/broken outer jacket - Here is pic of where the sensor is located, Hyundai has removed the starter so they could take picture, transmission is on right side of the picture. We usually can replace without removing the starter, but if they stubborn/stuck, starter needs moved some or removed to get better access. Actually this engine might be out of vehicle... For your plugs and wires, I would suggest you run out and find a set of NKG IRIDIUM plugs.. Hyundai use NGK Platinum,, or Champion Platinum.. As mentioned in previous post, I cannot stand it when I remove NGK from customer car and install Champion because that is what we had on hand, makes me cringe.... For the wires, use the Hyundai wire set.. They fit, are cut the right length, boots all seal proper. Labor, I think we charge close to $300 for the plug replace, I will need to verify what our customer charge is Monday when I can hit our price guide.. Will be cheaper as you is supplying the Iridium plugs, so you buy wire install and plug install... I do know there is only a .3 labor diffirence between wire and plug replace in our guide. Last Edited By: sbr711 02/27/10 08:37:18. Edited 2 times.
H Monk		#4	[-]
Posts: 11 (02/27/10 09:26:59) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Many thanks SBR. You seem to have built quite the favorable reputation on these boards. Now I see why. Your pics sure do help. BTW, since you seem to have lots of cred here, please share with the others how you came to find this site? It sure looks like you've save Santa Fe drivers a LOT of dough and heartache. Oh, and thanks for not ribbing me too much on the overdue plug changeout. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around $ 300 for sparkplugs....well, until I breakdown that is. It's been running so good, I didn't want to mess with something that might reduce my consistent 20mpg/city, 30 mpg/long trips. Odd that the Crank Position Sensor wouldn't toss off a code isn't it? I seem to remember when the car was less than a year old, they replaced it free on all SFs when they came in for any service. ------------ On Christmas Eve, a plumber was just sitting down to dinner when his phone rang from a panicy woman. 'All of the sinks in the house are stopped up and I have 16 guests coming to dinner in two HOURS!! Please come right away', she said. The plumber replied, "It's Christmas Eve and MY family is just sitting down NOW to enjoy OUR dinner. If I come right now, it will cost double time". "I don't care what it costs. Please come right away", she replied. When the plumber arrived, she met him at the the door and pled, "Please hurry, my guests will be here any minute." He goes into the basement, looks around, using his hammer from his tool kit, reaches up and bangs once on a drain pipe overhead. "WHOOSH" all the sinks instantly clear. The woman is delighted and tells the plumber to go upstairs and settle up with her husband. When he asks "What do we owe you?", the plumber replies, "$ 500" "$ 500 ??? You only took two minutes !! I'm a brain surgeon and I don't even charge THAT much !!" Plumber replies, "Neither did I when I was a brain surgeon, that's why I became a plumber!" Doctor says, "Well I refuse to pay that bill until you give me an itemized list of time and materials" On a torn piece of scratch paper, the plumber writes, "Banging on pipe....$ 5, Knowing WHERE to bang...$ 495. Total due...$ 500" ----------- Now where do I send the case of beer?
sbr711		#5	[-]
Posts: 366 (02/27/10 19:26:25) Moderator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Spark plugs on the 2.7 is rather easy to do... a lot easier than the 3.5.. Front 3 is out in open, back 3 is 3 bolts behind intake, flip the cables off throttle, cable bracket, air temp sensor plug, purge valve move out of way, unplug 2 connectors at throttle body, remove air box cover and tube to throttle, main intake plenum bolts at middle, tip intake plenum toward driver side with throttle body downward, use something to hold intake out of your way. Problems after refuel have occassionly been a purge valve that sticks open, and when re-fuel, the tank vents through the charcol bed in the canister, and when started, the stuck open purge draws off the fuel vapors in uncontrolled fashion as it is now an uncontrolled purge (vacuum leak), the rich mix makes car act goofy/rough, but it should give a -0441 code because the uncontrolled purge is dinking with the tank pressure sensor when it not supposed to, so PCM sees we is not purging, but pressure sensor is active.. I'm still leery about the crank sensor, it is 7-8yr old, good amount of heat/cool cycles, and mileage... keep in touch to if the sensor wiring is indeed frayed.
H Monk		#6	[-]
Posts: 14 (04/25/10 13:57:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Remove this ad CSI Santa Fe: OK, I THINK we are finally fixed... and like MOST things that go bad, I had lots of suspects. This episode was NOT wrapped up in sixty minutes...more like sixty DAYS!. Thanks to SBR for giving it his best long distance guess. But after a new crank position sensor (my first time even FINDING it), I broke down and bought my own OBD 2 reader. I could not grasp how the auto parts store could not get a code when the "MIL" light was on constantly. Of course I kept wanting to blame ARCO for overfilling my fuel tank. I finally got a "Misfire cyl. 1" then later "Misfire Cyl 1 & 4". Now a little detective work. Plug wires maybe? Try in the dark...see if I get a shock...NOTHING. What do cylinder 1 & 4 have in common.... THEY SHARE ONE OF THE THREE COILS!! Now the only problem is at the dealer , they price out at $ 140 each x THREE!! Time for a froogle search. I can get at NAPA but they require all three with the mounting braket (not QUITE the same pattern as my early '02) but I only nee ONE of those coils. All three are listed at $ 145 but by dropping my employers name and still paying cash, I get all three with the worng bracket for $ 70. Very difficult taking ONE of those coils off. Especially when I start breaking the keeper clips on the wiring. No problem... I pull the entire bracket and remount with only ONE bolt. One last bugaboo that MIGHT (probably NOT ) related... the battery ground strap fell apart when wraping up. From the looks of it...the ground was just barely making a battery connection. New vice grips connection work fine but cosmetically ugly as sin. BINGO, BANGO, BONGO... all better now... I think. Thanks again for SBR's help. Those pictures REALLY help A LOT !!! Last question: Any harm in leaving that plastic engine cover off? My hood paint clear coat is already bad and I kinda like the access better. Last Edited By: H Monk 04/25/10 14:28:01. Edited 2 times.

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